Plants, Pain and Prozac

Hey, plant lovers.

And plant killers.

I'm Jonathan.

And I'm Jeanette.

We're 2 old high school friends.

Current geriatric millennials.

This is Plant Sluts.

The podcast where plants meet pop culture, sex, gossip.

And all the dirt in between.

Coming to you from a backyard in Salem, Oregon.

And a rooftop in Montreal, Quebec.

We're Plant Sluts.

We're Plant Sluts.

Oh my God.

Hey, sluts!

Today we're going to talk about why gardening can feel both healing and difficult at the same time.

Trauma dump!

Yeah, we're gonna let Jonathon have a trauma dump over pain. We're gonna talk about gardening and depression and gardening with ADHD and hopefully have a couple tips or at least commiserate with you if you're dealing with any of that.

Yeah.

But first, let's share our garden status updates. Jonathan, how is your garden going?

Okay, well, it's been a really long time, I think, since we recorded, so there's been a shit ton of stuff happening.

Yeah.

Overall, I'm like really pleased. Everything is growing really well at the community garden. I've taken like a new approach, which I think I said I took this approach last year, but I don't know if I actually did it. But this year my approach is like no undesired plant will remain. So I've kind of like taken everything out.

Well, I remember last year, I remember when we recorded, you were doing chaos gardening. So this sounds different, if I remember correctly.

Oh, okay. Yeah. Time really flies. I have no idea what I was doing last year, to be honest. But yeah, so this year I took out my blackberry bush because I fucking hate that thing. Like, it was gross, like seedy. It made like beautiful flowers. It brought all the pollinators. But the blackberries are like so seedy and crunchy, and sometimes I found little worms in them, and that kind of like really put me off.

Yeah.

I would just freeze them and then bake them later and just like imagine the like larva of the worms and stuff in like my crumbles.

Yeah, there's a lot of blackberries that grow in Oregon, and I've heard that like after a rain or two, that's when all the, the worms start developing in the blackberries. So like don't pick them if it's been raining, which usually it's It's pretty dry in the summer here, so they're good. But yeah.

Well, they're gone now, so I don't care. I don't give a fuck.

Had you planted it in the ground?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. This was in the community garden. So I planted it like a really long time ago and they've just— they're incredibly persistent.

Yeah, here they're very invasive too, like certain varieties, I think Himalayan blackberries. And like I had a friend who had them in her backyard and she could never get rid of it. I think here you wouldn't grow it in the ground unless maybe it's a different variety.

Yeah, I guess like there's the cultivated varieties that don't have the thorns. I mean, they, they don't produce as many berries from like my own observation, and they produce like bigger and fatter berries. And now I don't remember if it's like a prickle or a thorn.

We were the ones that told us that it's different. Yeah, the rose episode.

Yeah, now I'm like, wait, what is it?

We need to know because we need to be able to correct people.

Yeah, yeah, it's true. Yeah. So the good thing is I can wear whatever I want now to the garden because before I wouldn't wear like my favorite shirts because it would get caught on the blackberries.

Oh.

And I would have like scratched up forearms and all that. But anyways, so I cleared out like all of the weeds and it looks really neat. It looks really clean. Even someone came and was like, wow, your garden looks so great this year, which was the old garden president, which we're going to get into that later. And my haskaps are like amazing. Oh my God, they're so full, like heavy arms full of like little blue uncircumcised berries. The ex-president was like commending me on my haskap bush because it is the biggest bush in, in the garden.

Jonathan has the biggest bush in the garden.

I have the biggest bush in the garden, not to brag. And apparently his has zero fruits on it and mine has like tons. What about your garden, Jeanette?

Opposite of everything you just said, basically. I remember last year I was growing a lot of lavender and I kind of was like, wow, I must be stressed and wanting to plant this plant that calms everything down.

I remember.

And this year I'm not doing that, but all of my seeds I started, and maybe I'm exaggerating by saying all, but a lot of the seeds I started, the plants still aren't growing and they seem like they were very stressed. Everything's kind of stunted and yellow.

You're not projecting there, right?

Yeah, yeah. Well, I'm projecting, it's projecting. We're connected and it's just—

Your moon phases are aligned.

Well, it's like I was gardening and starting the seeds when I was maybe under a lot of stress or stressed out, and now it's like manifesting like it's not growing well, at least the vegetables. Next year, maybe I will just grow flowers because those seem to do well when I plan it out. I have some nice Strawflowers growing, blanket flowers. My poppies are in bloom.

Blanket? Did you say blanket flowers?

Yeah.

Oh, okay. Yeah, they used to be called something not very—

Racist?

Appropriate. Yeah, I think they used to be called like Indian blankets or something like that. Okay.

And I'm growing calendula and nasturtiums. Those are doing well. And a lot of the flowers are doing well, you know, the roses and everything, but the tomatoes And like even basil and eggplant and peppers are all just like tiny.

And honestly, like, it's the same thing with me this year and the same thing for my grandmother. Okay. And it's— if it's happening to my Nonna, it means it's something to do with the— I don't know, the universe.

Okay.

Because all of my tomatoes also are so stunted and my peppers, they lost— they like, they grew like, I don't know, 1.5 inches and they lost all their fucking leaves.

Wow.

So weird.

Okay. It was so much work, you know, starting all the seeds. And now I see my neighbors who just buy a couple plants from the nursery and I'm like, what am I doing? Why did I even start from seeds? My luffa that I've been so excited about, I have 3 from however many I started. I'd be surprised if they get big enough to grow luffa. And no baby boo pumpkins. Those are dead. Those are gone.

Jeanette, we talked so much about it on previous episodes.

I know.

You talk so much about your loofah and those pumpkins.

I'm wondering if mid-June is too late to start the loofah and pumpkins again because our frost date isn't until like the end of October.

Yeah, I think loofah, if I remember correctly, loofah needs like 100 days. It's like it's quite a long season.

Yeah. So that is my—

Okay, that sucks.

I apologize for being so negative. I have had a fun time like sitting out back, the fountain, Nathan built is done and it's pretty, you know, my peas are growing and those are about done. I've been eating those peas. They're so good. And, you know, the flowers and just our ferns look nice and gooseberries huge. I don't know. So it's nice out there in the garden. I've been trying to enjoy it a little bit.

I commend your effort to say some positive things, Jeanette. It's not going unnoticed.

But I'd like to introduce and propose a new segment.

Right. Okay.

It's Grammy Battles the Woodchuck.

Okay.

Have I told you about my grandmother and the woodchuck?

Okay, so what is a woodchuck? Is it a beaver?

I don't know. I think it's like a mix between a mole and like a hamster.

Really? Okay. How much wood does a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood? That's all I know about a woodchuck.

Yeah, it's that.

Okay, I'm going to look that up. Okay, tell me.

Like how my gardening is now just me versus fungus gnats and buying like insects and not actually, you know, looking at plants. Anytime I ask her about her garden, she just talks about her arch nemesis, the woodchuck. And it's become where I don't think she's gardening anymore, she's just battling a woodchuck.

So apparently a woodchuck is a groundhog. It must be some sort of like Eastern US word to describe what we know as a groundhog, or at least what I know as a groundhog.

I still wouldn't be able to tell you what a groundhog is either. She wrote me some letters and has sent me the inside of this marigold pack to show me the marigolds she planted. And they're signet marigolds, which I think—

They're what? What kind?

Signet.

Okay.

I think it could also be called like American marigold.

Is it a tagete? Tagete? T-A-G-E-T-E? Do you have the species name there?

Yeah, it's a tagete.

Oh, okay, okay.

tenuifolia. They're native to Mexico and Central America. And they don't look like marigolds that I traditionally have seen with the triple petals and They're not supposed to have that same smell. And so she wrote in her letter that she planted these because animals aren't supposed to eat them. Like, she wanted some flowers that, like, the squirrels and woodchuck wouldn't eat. She wrote, your garden must be in blossom and beautiful now. I have weeds. In fact, the woodchuck was in a bed that I have not cleared eating weeds last night. The battle begins. I went to her garden, uh, this year and she has cameras.

Are you serious?

Motion-detecting lights. It's all fenced in, but also with like cans upside down in each bed. She's like recruited some of her kids to help. Like my father and his brother were putting an owl house up high in a tree because I guess owls—

They eat woodchucks?

Scare them.

Okay.

My dad got her like a fake Owl statue, and she just recently got these pellets.

Is it like fox pee, fox urine pellets?

No, they're ones that are supposed to like agitate their nose and eyes if they go near this stuff. Maybe like, it sounds like it's kind of like a cinnamon type effect.

Okay.

Like, she tries everything. So now she has to put like netting over any flowers. They ate the marigolds. And she told me a story yesterday. She called me and She said there were bites taken out of her strawberries, and she didn't see any footprints, so she thinks it might have been the squirrels. And I just love the idea of her out there with her detective hat on and her magnifying glass, being like, there's no footprints. I don't know. This might be the groundhog or the squirrel. I always just am laughing with her when she talks about her garden because it's almost always just woodchuck updates. I wouldn't be surprised if my grandmother buys her first gun. You know, at this point in her 80s, she's just like, fuck it. And she's out there like blasting into the ground while everyone's like, someone go get Grammy. You hear like gunshots coming from their little town and it's like Bugs Bunny and, um, is it Elmer Fudd? Where all he wants to do is like kill the rabbit because he eats his vegetables. Like she's turned into like a cartoon villain.

And she has cameras. She can get like little updates on her phone where she's like, I gotta go.

Yeah, exactly.

She's having coffee at Dunkin's and she's just like, I gotta go, it's in the garden. Yeah, she grabs her gun, she grabs her gun and jumps into her Prius.

Anyways, yeah, so that's my, uh, nomination for our new segment of Grammy Kills the Woodchuck. All right, it's time to grab a mug, pick some herbs, and spill the tea. Jonathan, you have some interesting garden tea for us. Yes.

So I alluded to the community garden kind of committee.

Mm-hmm.

And this year we have a new committee. So a lot of the people from the old committee, they were older folks. They, I guess, realized that it takes up a lot of their time and they stepped down. And a new, younger, let's say, like, set of gardeners took the reins. And the, it's kind of interesting, like it's, it's, it seems a little bit passive aggressive. So I was looking through the Facebook group and I saw, for instance, they posted a video of like how to open up the lock on the gate, which is like very simple. But I, I, I think I saw it as like a very like passive aggressive, like this is how you open it and this is how you close it because I think some people were leaving it unlocked.

Oh.

So the gate has a lock. Right, for people not to steal stuff, I guess, which I think is kind of ridiculous because there are no like thieves of cucumbers and stuff. I mean, like maybe, but yeah, it's, it's a little bit police state.

When you're saying like the old people kind of retired and helped, you know, pass the baton to the next younger generation, when we say young, we're talking 40s, right?

Yeah.

30s, 40s?

Yeah, like our age.

Yeah, our age have definitely mastered the passive-aggressive Facebook posts. So for sure, that's what they were doing.

Yes. And I received an email which I found was like very— it was just like, you know, hello, we did a check of all of the garden plots and there's some contraventions of the rules. And they just sent me a picture of my plot and then listed, like copied and pasted a bunch of the rules. And I'm like, not sure which ones apply to the picture. The picture is not very specific. It's basically like a picture of my plot.

Yeah.

I want to write back to be like, what would you like to see? Like, what would you like to see me Do, please be specific. You know, it was so robotic and so very like, you know, which is so different from the style.

Do you think they used AI to write the email?

Well, hold on.

Because— okay.

What?

The complaint a lot of people have with like how they know something's AI is it's never specific. Like it will go around a subject but doesn't ever actually like tell you any specific examples or anything like that.

So as a hobby, I've been reading the Facebook group and I found a really fun exchange. And I thought for this Garden Gossip, we could take a different approach, which is to do an interpretive reading of the back and forth.

Ooh.

So I do have a script and I am asking you, Jeanette, to— there's some like little hints about the character in this script. And I really want us to go like deep into the character.

Okay.

It starts off with 2, 2 players, let's say, 2 personalities, and then it ends with another, like a 3rd person comes in. So I'm going to play someone who is known as Minsc. This is their name on Facebook. I've changed it so that it's not exactly that, but their real name is Pierre. And you, Jeanette, will play someone called Aurélie.

Wait, are those their real names or the names you changed?

Those are the names I changed.

Okay.

You don't have to do a French accent, by the way. Okay?

Oh, okay, good. Thank God.

Yeah, okay.

No, I don't want to. I don't want to. We have listeners in Montreal. They'll laugh. Well, everyone will laugh.

1, 2, 3, scene.

Am I the only one slightly stunned by the quasi-police state the new committee is trying to establish? I've been here for 4 years. The garden is a place to reconnect with the living, not something meant to be shoved into a square corporate box. But lately, I'm sensing the installation of a highly disagreeable neoliberal spirit. Is the new committee trying to turn our garden into their own little startup?

Orly, if you have been here for 4 years, you should see this not as a startup, but as clarity of communication. The rules are the same. But to help you, I wish to enrich your perspective. There are 300 plots here. That requires coordination. I demand you broaden your perception.

We will leave it there then, since our approaches are clearly incompatible. And just for the record, of the two of us, I'm the one expressing myself with my real name and my real face. Tucks hair behind ear. With middle finger.

If you have a problem, I propose we lift the anonymity right now. I am at plot number 20. My name is Pierre. I will be there tomorrow between 5 and 6 PM. I would be delighted to discuss our differing perceptions face to face. If tomorrow at 5 doesn't work, propose another time. I'm quite flexible, but I suggest you calm down. It is good for your health.

Pierre, I am perfectly calm. I used to direct film crews, and believe me, it was less complex than whatever you're trying to do here. My intervention is about your maniacal repetition of the rules in their most minute details. But honestly, knowing that the committee's messages are now drafted by artificial intelligence, I am not surprised by your total ignorance of figures of speech. And yes, my comment contains metaphors. They are planted more than 8 inches from the aisles. Sound effect, mic drop, followed by more typing.

My God, the 8-inch metaphor line. I love it.

Oh my God.

End scene. Or pause scene. If you think Aurélie has won the War of Plot 20, the committee administrator Sophie enters the chat and she doesn't just leave a comment. She commits the cardinal sin of internet drama.

What does she do?

She takes the private email that she's already sent to Aurelie behind closed doors, and she copy-pastes it directly into the public Facebook wall for everybody to see. She literally announces it. She starts by saying, I am taking the liberty of copying the response to your email here so it can benefit the others.

Wow, this is messy. Copy and pasting private emails is like putting screenshots of text messages up. This sounds like the most weaponized and passive-aggressive thing you can do for the quote-unquote benefit of others.

I mean, the benefit is that we get to, we get to see it and talk about it.

I thank Sophie for this.

Okay, so please, Jeanette, can you read Sophie's copy and pasted HR manifesto? And you have to read it in a very deadpan, robotic, AI-generated corporate monotone. Okay, I'm gonna call it. 1, 2, 3, scene.

Hello, Aurelie. Thank you for taking the time to write us and share your feelings. We are sincerely sorry to learn that our recent communications give you the impression of a rigid or less friendly climate at the Garden. This is certainly not the objective pursued by the committee. On the contrary, all our actions are guided by benevolence, equity, and the desire to preserve a pleasant environment for everyone. We are merely offering proactive accompaniment so that misunderstandings or tensions do not settle between neighbors. Rest assured, our ambition is certainly not to become owners of the garden. We are above all volunteer gardeners. Thank you again for expressing your opinion. Best regards.

I LOL that proactive accompaniment. It sounds so fucking condescending. Oh yeah. Scene.

Oh.

I don't know. Does AI make it less passive-aggressive or more passive-aggressive? I guess that's like, I'm trying to wonder, like it does take away a lot of maybe more like active aggression and it maybe makes it more passive, right?

I think also with the generational thing, millennials are very fluent in tone. in text. Like, if there's a period after a sentence in a text, it's like, whoa, why are you mad? You know?

Like, okay with a period at the end.

Yeah, exactly. You know, this is our native language. We were raised on this. And, you know, every generation has their new different examples. Like, Gen X does the dot dot dot ellipses, I think it's called. And then so to millennials, that's rolling your eyes, or, you know, kind of like mean something different. So it's interesting to see it kind of in real time, people trying to interpret the tone of writing rather than, you know, talk in person. And really, a lot of things can just be settled when you talk in person. You get rid of trying to read into things and like saying like, wow, they're angry. And then the person who's writing it is like, no, I'm just using AI. I'm not even angry. Or they get angry over it. The comment sections are so unhinged.

That was kind of the approach of the previous committee is that they would really like come up to you and tell you. They'd be like, oh, your rhubarb is jutting into the aisle. Can you remove that?

Yeah. And then you'd be like, oh, okay.

I mean, I roll my eyes, but I'm like, yeah, sure. Okay, fine. It's like, I don't care about the rhubarb and I don't care if people step on it.

Yeah.

Anyways, I'm going to keep my eye open for other juicy tidbits, but for sure the ambiance has really changed and I'm really excited.

Jonathan let me do an episode on planting by moon phases, so today I'm letting him bitch about being in pain.

Thanks, Jeanette. Gardening can ease stress, right, and improve your mood, but it can also bring about pain itself. And I thought it would be cool if we could look at the ways that gardening has an effect on us physically and mentally. Mentally and maybe go into how we could avoid some of the downsides of that.

Yeah. Why don't we start with you just trauma dumping your pain story?

So it's 2003. We were like kind of newish friends.

Well, 2003, we had been friends for a while because I had already graduated high school.

Yeah, well, like we were friends for 3 years, which is not very long considering that we've been friends—

Compared to now.

For like 25 years.

Okay.

So I was driving to Montreal from Massachusetts, which I did a lot because I was always like tired of Massachusetts and always wanted to go to Montreal to party, to drink underage for US. Actually, it was underage for Canada too. But, you know, they don't give a fuck.

We would do that a lot. I remember just telling people I'm sleeping over your house for the weekend and then, sorry, Grammy. And then we would be in another country.

Yeah. This time I remember I left really early around 2 AM or 3 AM because I was like, so excited I couldn't fall asleep. I don't remember why I was excited, but probably just the whole idea of going to Montreal and having some fun. Do you remember my car then, Jennette?

Was it when you drove your brother's Beetle?

Yeah. So I had like a Volkswagen Beetle. This was not my car. It was like my brother's, but I was able to use it because my brother moved to Boston and so he left his car and I left a note—

Sorry, Reece.

In the mailbox. Yeah, I left a note in the mailbox to my mom and my dad, and I was saying that I was staying at my friend Liz's grandmother's cottage in Vermont.

Oh my God.

Liz doesn't have a grandmother that lives in Vermont.

No. Sorry, Liz.

Yeah, I was honest about the direction. North. Due north.

Okay. Yes.

I was, you know, quote unquote, like a bad kid then, like I would say.

Yeah.

And whatever. I went to Montreal. I had like a lot of fun, whatever. On my way back, I was definitely driving too fast. I remember I had exams coming up. This was, I suppose, winter. Yeah, it was winter. So this would have been the December, December exams. And I drove around a curve in the mountains and the car slipped on some ice. I remember it hit the guardrail and then it spun around and hit the other side of the guardrail. And the car was a total mess. I totaled the car.

Wow.

But also there were like a dozen cigarette packs that had scrambled all over the car.

Oh no.

So they took me out of the car and put me in a stretcher and brought me to the hospital strapped to a board.

Oh my God.

And I guess they strapped me to the board because they needed to do scans to make sure that, you know, I didn't, like, destroy my spine. From those ramifications, from that accident, today I'm living, like, with, I guess, chronic pain. my back and my neck are constantly in pain. So there's basically not a day where I don't have pain.

Yeah.

It's like my one true lifetime partner, my high school sweetheart.

Oh my God.

And so you'd wonder, why the fuck do I garden? Wouldn't it be too much on my body? And yeah, I mean, it is a lot. But as my pain therapist would say, if the pain is going to be there Anyways, then I might as well experience the pain and do something that I enjoy instead of just moping around the house feeling bad about myself and feeling the pain.

Oh, wow. That's an interesting way to look at it.

So profound. There's so many aspects of our everyday that influence our mood and our attitude towards the pain. Usually, and this kind of goes with gardening, it's like when you're doing something that you enjoy, it's like one of those elements that really affect your like interpretation of the pain. And so if you're doing something that you enjoy, you're less likely to really like feel the pain because you're doing something enjoyable that you love.

And then like working from your computer, sitting at a desk causes the same pain.

And I do not enjoy working. I do not enjoy being at a desk sending emails. That's for sure.

Not to jump ahead too much, but like when I'm at work, I use a stand-up desk. I can't sit for long periods of time.

Yeah.

Because of pain.

Yeah, same. Yeah, it's not easy to deal with that every day.

Yeah.

You're not crying, are you, Jennette? You're like wiping the underside of your eyes.

I'm sweating.

Allergies? Sweating? Okay.

Sweating. So your pain specifically is like neck and back pain? Just to go into like the detail of what we're kind of referencing here.

You also experience some pain, right?

Yeah.

And do you feel like getting into the garden and getting dirty kind of helps it? Yeah.

I've herniated the disc in my neck twice.

Like in 2 spots?

No, the same spot herniated twice 7 years ago. It's after I started teaching. I mean, no connection there. I even had shrapnel of the bone like in my spinal column. and I couldn't move. I just had to sit. The pain would radiate down my arm. And so that happened twice. So I do have some pain there. And I also have— I'm actually going for an injection tomorrow because of hip pain. And I have lower back pain and mid-back pain that I get injections for. Oh my God, we're so old. But the pain, I mean, the pain has been there since before I was old even.

Mm-hmm.

But I do feel like gardening It's something I want to do despite the pain. And for me, moving around is more helpful than not gardening. But it's like you said, like, it's going to be painful either way. So I can, you know what, like lay flat on the ground. But in that case, I have vertigo, so I get dizzy laying flat on the ground, or I can be out gardening. Yeah. Yeah. Oh my God. I have so many things.

Trauma dump. This is the trauma dump episode. Jeanette, you can say it.

This is a trauma dump.

Like, if you can't take it, listeners, you, you better just delete this episode or go on to the next one.

Yeah.

Yeah. So for this episode, I want to know why when we garden do we feel so good, even though that we have so many reasons that it should not feel so good. So for this, Jeanette, you and I read some of the research out there, tried to go a little bit more in depth of like What is it that is working in this case? So how many ways do pain and nature interact? And what were the things, Jeanette, that stood out the most to you in reading some of this stuff?

In the studies I read, I feel like nature has an all-around positive effect on us that can change our perception of pain, and it can help reduce, like, perceived pain and even lower the use of pain medications. And what about you? What was your, like, main takeaway?

Well, I thought it was interesting, the research that shows that patients who are recovering from surgery healed better when they had things like windows. And this is like outside of gardening, right? This is just like nature. When there's windows that overlook trees instead of like brick walls or other windows, when there's sunlight in the rooms, and even like when there are plants in hospital rooms, there's a lot of evidence that shows that this has a positive effect on healing. And like, we've heard this, this is not new, but it's like, you know, I think we forget it.

Gardening can also cause pain, right, Jonathan?

Yeah, there's like bending, crouching, lifting, and sometimes you're in a prolonged forward position, and all of this can aggravate back pain, or I guess hip pain too, right? Like anything that involves basically moving your fucking joints.

Neck. What kind of tips do you have that we can share with people who might also be experiencing pain?

A lot of this comes from a 2023 article by Andrea Muraskin and from the handful of specialists that I've seen over the last decade or 2 decades.

Yeah.

What I found useful is pacing your activity. So break your gardening into short sessions instead of a long continuous work. And this is something that I do a lot I do have in my head always this like pressure of being like, I need to go out and garden, I need to go out and garden. And it's like, it seems like this big task. But actually, this year I've started to go to the garden almost every day. And I'll do basically like 30 minutes to an hour of just like weeding, watering, and then like I just leave. That's it. And it doesn't matter. Like, I don't need to finish a task. I just need to contribute to this long-term goal of ridding the garden of weeds.

I think that's so important. And a lot of us I think once you're in the zone, you feel like you need to finish or push yourself. But when you are dealing with pain, it's important to listen to your body and not push yourself and, you know, not to judge yourself based on how productive you are.

Yeah, that's important.

There's that kind of society pressure of like productivity is goodness.

Another is like using more supportive positions so you can sit while you're working. You can have like kneeling pads or even just like switch what you're doing. So if you're doing a task that requires that you're kneeling, like instead do something that requires standing or even like hip hinging. Your legs are mostly straight and you're really hinged all the way forward.

Oh yeah.

Versus squatting, just switching that. Like if you're doing, let's say like weeding, that's more on the ground, going from like a squatting position to a hip hinge could just help move your body in a different way so that you're not going to strain it. being in one position for too long.

And it sounds like having an idea of what position you're going to take maybe before you start and get into it. So you're not forcing yourself to be in a position that's uncomfortable, but know like, okay, I need to go grab the kneeling pad, or I need to think about what 2 positions I can be in while I weed versus just going out there and doing something that you know will result in like more pain afterwards. Be mindful of your body and what it needs and actively thinking about it beforehand.

And you can use ergonomic supports like stools, a back support. Actually, you know what I wore the other day? A friend of mine lent her SI joint belt, which kind of sits a bit more on your hips. So it's more about the lower back and the joint mechanism. So what it does is it's supposed to bring pressure on different ligaments so that it kind of switches Something switches about, like, your position. I'm not really sure.

So I— this is kind of embarrassing, but I have to use a back shapewear, like a tank top, and the pressure helps with this one specific mid-back chronic constant pain I have. I get injections there, but I also— I'm not wearing it in the summer as much, and some yoga I've been doing has helped it. But yeah, I have to wear this kind of I guess it's like a girdle, but it's not so that I look smooth like a sausage. It's for my back pain specifically.

Yeah, it just like so happens that you look smooth like a sausage while you're wearing it.

Yeah, like, you know, the muffin top goes away. But I also used to have to wear wrist braces, but then I got carpal tunnel release surgery, so I don't have to wear that anymore.

Yeah. And the other thing is just modify how you stand up and how you bend. Hip hinges, I guess, are part of that, but also using your hands on the ground to lift yourself up in a more controlled and slow manner to avoid like suddenly— I don't know, most of the time when I get flare-ups, it's really just random times where I might not grab onto something, I might grab onto something and like it kind of jerks in a way where it like pulls something that pinches the nerve. And then it's like a flare-up that lasts maybe like a week.

Yeah. Yeah, and I think planning can be so important because I will do something like move a bag of soil or compost myself instead of asking my husband to do it for me, and then I will have pain that lasts, you know, longer. And had I kind of planned ahead, you know, because he can lift things up, I don't think it hurts him. It's just like, it's like nothing to him.

I don't have someone like that.

If you don't have a Nathan, you use a Hand truck or a dolly, it's called.

Like, you can do it in smaller quantities. You can empty it out into like another bucket and then bring that bucket somewhere.

Mm-hmm. I do that a lot. I scoop it into like a big bowl and then bring it. Or taking advantage of— I know this is like, we're so old now, it sounds like, but really, I mean, I've had these problems since my 20s as well. I first hurt my back when I was 21. But asking for help, like, At the store, when you're unloading, you know, there's often people that will help load your car if you're getting soil and stuff.

Do you ask for help?

Yeah, I've asked for help putting stuff into the trunk because I know if I do it and I push myself to do it, I will have pain for a long time because of that. And so it's embarrassing. At school, I have my students move stuff all the time. Like, if I need to move a printer, I could do it, like, physically, like, I could pick it up, right? But I know that it's going to cause pain later. And so I just ask a kid who is fine doing it, who's strong enough. And they're not kids, they're teenagers. And I'm not asking little 5-year-olds to move my printers. And, you know, it's like humbling, it's embarrassing, whatever. But in the, in the long run—

Plus, like, those kids probably don't know that you're doing it because you're not able to do it, right? Yeah, I don't know. It's just a teacher. You're just a teacher bossing them around. I mean, that's what I would think.

Yeah, they, they just do what I say. It's fun. Well, they do what I say in that kind of stuff, but not when it comes to their work. I don't know. Not when it comes to putting the photo in focus.

What would some like garden design adaptations look like? Like if you were to design your garden in a way where it would reduce pain?

My fungus gnat infested new garden bed is a raised garden bed. And so the plants are at waist height. So you don't need to bend down and crouch to work with them or harvest them or kill the fungus gnats. So that's definitely something I recommend. And I think I mentioned the last episode, like, I found this raised garden bed at a yard sale for cheap. It's not something you need to go out and like buy everything right away, but start planning for that when you are adding in new things if you think this is a problem. Doing some container gardening, railing planters or plant stands, What are railing planters? Like if you have a patio or porch railing and the, like a flower planter that goes on that.

Oh, right.

My mom just got some of those for her porch and planted flowers. Oh, I've seen people online be like, why does everyone use garden beds? Why don't they just plant in the ground? And like, there's so many reasons to use garden beds and not plant in the ground. Clay soil, rocks.

Just like the soil heating up faster in the spring.

Mm-hmm. And it helps you, you know, reach things and bend over. And it can be a lot more strain. Like, I don't have to kneel to get in my garden bed. I can squat versus if it's in the ground, I might have to get on my hands and knees to do stuff, which also for me would cause like dizziness, you know, and that's not good to, to have going on when you're gardening.

I guess another design consideration would be to have enough space for you to actually like maneuver around, right? Not to make your garden beds too deep that you'd have to kind of overstretch.

Yeah.

And I think they say 3 feet is a good depth for a garden row. And then, you know, enough room in between that you can like swing around a chair or that you can actually have enough space to be on your all fours. You know, you have to kind of think about that too. Like my garden, for instance, at the community garden It's like a little bit too crowded in that, like, I don't have enough space to move around. And that's one thing that if I were redesigning it, I would try and make the working areas— so it's like a path that I have that goes through it, kind of like a cross. Yeah, I would make those a bit wider.

So planning and not overplanting, which we love to do.

I mean, I'll just say that pain doesn't really have to prevent gardening. There are things that you can do to better support you in your gardening objectives?

Taking breaks, stretching, changing positions can all help you with gardening. It's really easy for people to say like, stretch, be perfect, do this, do that, you know, don't eat things that are inflammatory, which is every food I guess. But it's really like being mindful of your body and being present in your own body so you, you're thinking about what you're doing and If it could cause more harm, rather than just being on auto mode and just going, going, going. And that's when you start realizing, wow, I do need to stretch. Like when you're present in your body, maybe with— oh my God, this sounds so hippie, but like mindfulness or meditation can help you kind of be more present throughout the day so that you realize that you need to take a break or stretch. At least that's how I felt.

And also, don't be too worried about it either, right? Don't let like a little bit of pain prevent you from gardening in that similar, you know, way, or at the beginning where I was talking about like, if you're going to have the pain anyways, you might as well live with it and do something that you love to do.

For sure.

Another aspect that I find super interesting is the effects on microbes in the soil and how they affect us positively. I mean, there's also some that affect us negatively that you can get like infections from and that type of thing. But in the research that I did, I found that there were 2 types of microbes that affect you in a positive way. So the first one is one that's a lot more known or was a lot more known in the past, which is Mycobacterium vaccae. I don't know if I'm pronouncing that right.

Sounds good to me.

Which has been known to have a positive effect on serotonin levels. These are microbes that you would like absorb either from inhaling or just by spending time outdoors, such as gardening or walking in the news or walking in the woods.

Walking in the nude.

Yeah, walking in the nude, actually. Yeah, that might be a good strategy. It's what's called a psychobiotic.

That sounds like a date from hell.

Okay, Jeanette, it means that it, it means that it has an effect on your mental health. And another bacterium which we'll talk about more in depth is Streptomyces rhumosus. In a 2025 study on mice, they found that one soil bacterium, this Streptomyces rhumosus, produces something called the geosmin, which is that earthy smell that you notice after the rain. And they were testing whether exposure to this microbe could reduce depression-like symptoms in mice. And so what they did is they put mice under chronic stress for 14 days to induce, uh, depression-like behavior. That just sounds like a retail job. And some mice—

I was gonna say, they put me under chronic stress for 9 months a year.

They basically put them in an Amazon warehouse and had them fulfill the next-day orders.

Oh my God.

And some of the mice were regularly exposed to soil that was rich in the Streptomyces rhamnosus bacterium, and another group was exposed to sterilized soil. So without any microbes at all. And what they found was that the mice that were exposed to the microbe-rich soil showed fewer depression-like behaviors, and that soil exposure importantly reduced brain inflammation markers that were linked to depression. And exposure to these microbes improves synaptic plasticity. This is like the brain's ability to adapt and form like new connections, which usually stress reduces. And importantly, the sterilized soil did not produce this. And so it suggests that the microbes themselves mattered.

It's interesting to hear that depression studies also strongly relate to inflammation in your brain.

Right.

And so this microbe is anti-inflammatory and has those positive effects. Versus the Mycobacterium vaccae, which affects the serotonin. So there's like 2 different things happening.

Right. Yeah.

So it's amazing that that smell of earth can literally have these mood-related biological effects. But the study was done on mice, so scientists still need to do some human studies before we like draw too many conclusions.

Right.

Don't stop taking your SSRI and stick your hand in soil. Quite yet.

There was a 2022 study that was done, a small study on humans, where they were looking at whether Streptomyces rhumosus affects human mood and physiology. And this was with 30 adults that was— that performed a 5-minute soil mixing activity using soil that either had this microbe, the Streptomyces rhumosus, and sterilized control soil that had no microbes.

Mm-hmm.

The participants that were exposed to the microdrip soil had higher serotonin levels that was linked to mood regulation, and they had lower C-reactive protein, CRP, which, which is an inflammation marker. And EEG readings showed that there was increased alpha brainwave activity in the occipital lobe, which is what apparently we associate with relaxation and What are the big takeaways of this study? Well, the study basically supports the idea that gardening and exposure to soil could have real psychological and physiological benefits. It suggests that soil microorganisms are partly responsible for why horticultural activities can feel calming or restorative. And again, like the study that you're talking about, Janelle, on mice, it's a small pilot study. We can't make any big conclusions from it, but it does show that there are some benefits.

So to talk a little bit more about depression and your mood and gardening, I know I've used it a lot as a way to decompress after work.

Gardening?

When I'm at work, it's a stressful job, obviously. I work with teenagers, but also I also work with other adults.

And you're in a relationship.

But when I When I'm at work, I get asked hundreds, maybe 1,000 questions. I'm just berated with questions constantly. So my brain just gets really fried. I'm also around people the whole time, just in front of people, kind of performing. And then there's emails and there's actual problems that come up. And then there's the kids where I have to tell them, you're allowed to ask me 2 questions today.

Really?

That was your first one. Oh, yeah.

Oh my God.

Kids will sit there and just continuously ask me questions and not even about their work, just maybe they need someone to talk to and questions is how they do it. Even when you're not answering questions about the work, they're asking you if they can have a pass to go somewhere or can they go to the bathroom or what are we learning next, what are we doing tomorrow, and it's just constant, like it doesn't stop. So, I get really overstimulated at work to kind of decompress when I walk in the door. The last thing I want is to walk in the door and my husband comes in and says, what do you want for dinner? And the dogs bark at me and want to be pet and jump on me. I should train them, but anyway, so I get—

Them being your husband and the dogs.

Yes. I'm going to train my husband and the dogs to just give me a second. There's no decompression for me as soon as I get home. I don't even have kids. I do not know how people who have kids who come home and then they have to like take care of more things that are going to ask them questions. So what I started doing was coming home and putting my bags down outside and just gardening, taking care of a couple things, and letting my husband know like, please don't let the dogs out if you hear that I'm like coming home, so they're not out there wanting attention.

Don't let the dogs out.

I also told him, you know, if I'm out gardening, just Pretend I'm not here, like, unless it's super important, like, let me, like, decompress. Don't talk to me because I'm also deaf in one ear. So if I have an earbud in, I won't be able to hear him from the other ear. And so if my hands are, like, in the soil and I have an earbud in and I'm, like, trying to take it out so he can ask me something, like, it just becomes more stress.

Yeah.

I mean, I'm lucky to have a partner that I can communicate with in that way and that he will, you know, listen and And do that. And that really helps my mood so I can decompress a little bit when I come home. For some people, the drive home might do that, but I don't really feel like that's enough to decompress after work.

And what about like growing beneficial herbs? Because you're— you like that witchy stuff. What are some of the herbs that you could surround yourself with?

Yeah, so we've talked about a lot of them on this podcast because I try to grow them to calm the fuck down. Lavender, obviously. Lemon balm, which we've talked about in our first episode, can help calm nervous energy. You can like make tinctures or use it in tea and it helps mood balance if you are able to take it. Some people have medical conditions where they can't take lemon balm. There's also blue skullcap and other— and things in the mint family that help reduce stress. Passionflower helps reduce anxiety and can help improve sleep quality because it can be like a mild sedative. I'm growing that as well. I'm growing valerian. The root is used as like an antidepressant. I haven't harvested yet because it's stinky. Chamomile.

Classic.

I just harvested some. Yeah, that's supposed to be like a relaxing herb for tea. And this year I'm growing Suli holy basil, which is an adaptogen. That's used for stress balance and mood support and emotional steadiness. I also am hoping to grow hops in the future, not for beer, but for tea, because it's also supposed to help with mood.

Oh yeah?

I grow all this, but I still believe in using medical interventions like antidepressants and, you know, whatever, like anti-anxiety medication.

So I'm not You're like taking your Prozac basically with like your valerian tea.

Yeah, exactly.

Not with the lemon balm though, right? Because that might have— that might have an interaction.

I wanted to include a little, you know, witchcraft or whatever in today's episode. And since there's no zodiac sign for chronic pain yet, I thought we could do a— yeah, well, we could do a tarot card spread answering the question, what does my inner plant need right now? So this is a 3-card spread I came up with, and the cards represent your roots, soil, and sun. So the roots card you'll put first at the bottom, and that's what's grounding you right now. The second card is soil.

Okay.

And it's, what are you currently being nourished or shaped by? And then the last card at the top is the Sun. So what do you need more of to grow? So I thought I would pull the cards for both of us and feel free to cry if it gets too close to home. Jonathan, I'm going to do yours first.

Yay. I'm like sending my energies to your deck.

I'll pull all 3 and then talk about them.

And then you'll send me your deck pics?

Oh, yeah, my deck pics. Wow, okay, this is really interesting for what we're talking about.

Why the suspense? What is it? Death, death, death.

So your roots, what is grounding you right now, I got the Page of Pentacles.

Okay.

So right now you're being grounded by starting new things, like the beginnings of things, whether it's educational or initial stages of a new project.

Well, I definitely think that it's pointing to the— which I didn't mention here, but going to Italy. for an exchange program next year or the next academic year.

So in September?

In September. Yeah. So that's definitely like, I don't know if it's like grounding me as much as it's the opposite, which is like, it's, it's like de-grounding me, but like, I feel like it is like shaping my everyday, you know, like I, I'm really looking forward to it. Yeah. It's shaping my everyday. So if that, if that's what could be meant by grounding, then for sure. So the card is like a page holding up something, like looking into the sphere. Yeah, I guess it's like looking forward to something. It's what's keeping me grounded.

It gives you kind of like your purpose right now, it seems like.

Yeah.

Why you're kind of doing what you're doing each day, and it's an interesting card you say moving to Italy, because, well, literally the guy's standing on the ground, on the grass, and then there's these like fields in the background, like agriculture fields, and then a mountain. And yeah, he's kind of longingly looking at this pentacle coin, like this new venture, which represents like the thing, and he's kind of looking at it. So it hasn't started and you're just kind of like looking towards it, I guess.

Mm-hmm.

And then this is a— I kind of pulled a face when I saw this one for soil. What are you currently being nourished or shaped by? And with the episode that we are doing, this was A very interesting card to pull. It's the 10 of Swords.

Oh my God, it's someone laying down. Someone laying down on the ground with like 10 swords stuck into their back and neck.

Yeah.

Holy shit. I don't even need to talk about that.

Yeah, I mean, it's just like, I think we don't have to find any classic interpretation, but it looks like your neck and back pain are shaping what you're doing right now.

Whether that's good or bad, to be determined.

I guess the good thing is like you're using that to like create this, putting something creative out there from this pain, and that in the card there is the sun past the clouds in the background. So it's that—

That's true.

Bit of hope for what's going on right now, but it's kind of saying like the worst is over. There's nowhere to go but up, kind of.

Like up into heaven. Because I'm going to die soon.

The clouds are passing, and the 10 always kind of symbolizes that, like the ending. The cycle of suffering is kind of hitting the end. And then for your Sun, what do you need more of to grow? Interesting, you got the 3 of Pentacles.

Okay.

So another Pentacles They're kind of in like a—

Church?

An old building, like a church.

A medieval Italian church?

Yeah, totally Italian. And there's a little guy, and this is the Rider-Smith-Colman traditional classic deck. It's like a little builder up on a stool. It looks like he's finishing up, putting the finishing touches on this little archway that has the 3 of Pentacles, and there's 2 guys kind of watching in robes, looking at his work. So it seems to grow, this is what you need more of. And 3 of Pentacles represents working kind of with others, because if you see, they're holding the directions, the guy working. So this is kind of like the team-building card.

More group work? Maybe.

Maybe like collaboration. No.

No.

But it can also mean planning.

Okay.

But it also means like bringing things together through community and collaborating, or just like letting other people bring things to the table.

Could be telling me that I'm going to be in a throuple. That's what I need more of.

Yes. Uh-huh. To grow, you need that.

That's what I— I think that's what I need.

Well, there you go. Yeah. But it could also just mean like working with someone else. So it could be someone else But if you're talking about maybe heading to Italy and gardening and—

I've been wondering if I need to live with roommates or live by myself.

Oh.

This is like an actual thing that I've been really thinking about the last 2 or 3 days because I'm looking for places and like I'm finding a lot of co-housing options and not so much like living alone options. And I'm like, ooh, like, will I be— will I feel lonely? And do I need to be in more of a social environment where I have like roommates and I'm sharing things? Do you think that that's the answer?

Yeah, I think so. And I think it's saying you need that to grow.

Yeah.

It's not the Three of Cups where like you're gonna party and all be best friends and have like a live, laugh, love semester.

Well, that's what I want, but—

Well, I mean, it might be, but it might also be like the people that you end up with will teach you something like about yourself or something like it will. help you grow as a person in either your studies or your life, but it's definitely being with the other people to kind of push you along on your journey rather than going at it all alone.

I accept that.

I'm gonna pull my cards, and I've been getting one card a lot lately, and if I get it now, I'm gonna—

Is it the 10 of— what is it? No.

10 of Wands.

10 of Wands?

I think I've said this before. I don't pull cards to myself too much because then if I get one that I think of as bad, I get all in my head about it. I've been getting the Tower a lot lately, so I'm just hoping I don't get that again.

The 10 of Wands is the one where you're overwhelmed with tasks, right? What is the Tower?

The Tower is when something kind of Unexpected happens and everything comes crashing down, but it's like for the better.

Okay. It's not what you need right now.

Yeah, I haven't pulled that card, so let's see. So roots. Okay. 6 of Cups. All right, nice. I got the 6 of Cups for what's grounding you right now. And that is A couple kids growing flowers in a cup, handing them to each other. And this one, it can mean like nostalgia or the past, children, the innocence of thinking of the past and like the fun parts or the comfort. I like that it's 6 flowers being grown in these 6 cups because I also think of the kind of innocent joy of like gardening and growing flowers. It's like a comforting—

A very like Mm-hmm. Innocent activity.

Yeah. What's grounding me is like playfulness of like gardening. I also just made that journal I showed you for my trip coming up to England. So like drawing, I'm definitely getting more into drawing and painting. And for me, that makes sense.

It's bringing back to your roots, like of like what you've always wanted to do and like where you want to— what you want to activate inside of you. It's like that creativity, that creation.

Mm-hmm. Just to be quick because we're running so long, I just switched roles at work. So, I'm going to teach the traditional like physical media classes like teaching drawing and painting versus what I've been doing which was like photography and graphic design which really I don't come from that area of the arts. I come from like drawing and painting and illustration. And so, now this summer I'm kind of thinking about the projects we're going to do and I have some training I'm going to do this summer. to teach AP Art, so I'm getting back into pencils and paints and gardening and sketching and all that kind of stuff, so I can see that as my roots. My soil, what I'm currently being nourished or shaped by, is the Justice card.

Okay.

It's kind of a weird card. I've studied it a little bit, and by study, I mean listen to podcasts.

People have podcasts about anything.

Oh my God, I know. What is this, a plant tarot podcast? Justice card is all about balance, cause and effect.

Equilibrium?

There's this equilibrium. Yeah, that's a good word. It's a guy sitting between 2 pillars holding a scale in one hand and a sword in the other. He points down and up, so it's connecting your subconscious and like your higher self and kind of balancing your life. It probably means I'm going to get arrested for stealing those cigarettes as a kid. But I can see how it— finding balance and how what I do kind of affects maybe how I feel, like taking the rest in between gardening. Like when you don't rest, it affects things later. So finding that balance with different things. in life makes sense to me. And then Sun, what do you need more of to grow? And I think the answer is plants, because it is the 7 of Pentacles.

So someone standing with a— what is that, a spade or something?

It's like a hoe or shovel.

Yeah, like a hoe with a big bush of plants next to him. You need to do more gardening.

Yeah, he's leaning on the shovel looking at his garden that has produced a lot of Little pentacle coins. So what I need more of to grow is like maybe looking at what I have accomplished, like looking at those efforts that I have taken or hard work, maybe working a little bit more in the garden or at least appreciating what I have, which I talked about a lot already today is like kind of, you know, gazing and appreciating all that I've done instead of maybe focusing on the fungus gnats.

Right.

Yeah, interesting. That makes sense for me. So if you're into tarot, pull your 3-card plant slut spread for your roots, soil, and sun. That's kind of fun and kind of a quick one.

And soon we'll be coming out with our plant sluts tarot deck.

That's—

As soon as Jeanette gets to doing that. No, I'm just kidding.

It'll just be the 10 of Wands over and over again. Thanks for getting slutty with us.

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